I'm embarrassed for my home state of Colorado as the host of the source of the "two songs"—but it says something that the only GOP that would host Trump would be the Gov'r of Texas. Clearly, Trump was "Rocky Mountain High" on his own supply.
I say that as a neighbor, of sorts, to Norma Anderson, former GOP state senator and recently of Trump v Anderson, quite the SCOTUS infamy. Who's left? Rep. Boebert AKA "Beetlebert"? "Aurora" Mayor Mike Coffman?
Joking in front of the Comperatore widow that some wives would be thrilled to be in her shoes is so beyond all that is holy, it didn't even register in me that it actually happened until now, minutes after reading it. We really need to bury this monster under 20 million votes in November. And then freeze him and airlift him to Antarctica like we did with The Blob.
There's something profound, or profoundly eerie, about the tolerance in his base, supporters, and assorted remora along for the ride, for his Mafia sub-boss insult comic schtick. He insults the widow of the guy he used as a prop at his nomination, and it's "well, that's our Trump". No one else could get away with that. It's like they are all afraid of him. I understand the party, he owns their base and they clearly believe they will melt like the Wicked Witch of the West if they even threaten to cut him off. But all those God Bless Our Troops people? When did that get conditional? The Evangelicals I understand, like everyone else they think they will use him for their own ends and just flatter him regularly to keep him happy. Their faith and morals have always been situational. I assumed the bond was just that he fully validated their fear and resentment in language they understood, but now I think there's something more down there.
His whole run as a national figure has really opened a disturbing window on what motivates human beings and what huge compromises they are willing to make for what useless gains. All the psychology that, like you indicate, seemed in prior eras to be isolated to subgroups like organized crime has turned out to be widespread in the general population. I think a lot, since Trump, about this 1941 essay, "Who Goes Nazi?" https://harpers.org/archive/1941/08/who-goes-nazi/
I was thinking today that we'll be able to win any argument with Conservatives/Republicans for time immemorial, just by saying "Look what happens when your side takes over."
I see the problem. You assume that at some point they must ackowledge reality. I used to think that, but the more I study this phenomenon, the more I see no reason for them to do that, and ever-growing reasons for them to stay in the clown car.
Denial, coupled with approval from authority figures, is a powerful shield. Any loss is a conspiracy, any win is virtue rewarded. Remember, the only problem the Republicsn party (all of it, from Bill Barr to Liz 'n Dick) has with Trump is style, not substance. You mention elsewhere the "spell" being broken, but the tools Trump has put in the Republican toolbox will be used as needed. The ratchet only goes one way until it breaks, and when it does everything breaks.
Almost hate to admit it, but I think Liz sincerely hates the trashing of the Constitution (she has a different idea than you and me about her father's record). It's not just about manners for her. Gods forbid she should get a cabinet position, but I can see giving her the old Medal of Freedom.
How well have Trump's tools worked? Of all the people they sic'd the Justice Department and IRS on, the only one they've been able to touch is Hunter, who is after all not that innocent. The January 6 conspiracy didn't come close to achieving its aim, and now they want to try the same thing without the resources of having their man in the White House.
You're probably right about Liz. Forgive me, but say what you will about the tenets of conservatism, at least it's an ethos. But she is as committed to the weakening of democracy to ensure Republican rule as Trump is to ensuring Trump rule. Trump is her bridge too far, because he leads to a ravine for her and her party.
One of the hallmarks of fascism is how sloppy and inefficient it is. Honestly, what I'm worried about (assuming Trump loses) is the Republican party power struggle to come. In a sane world, without Trump's charisma to command the base, the old guard should regain control, and revert to the original plan to smother democracy slowly. Can MAGA find a new champion? I doubt it, but who knows, right?
Counterpoint, alas, this week I saw multiple Republicans on twitter saying "North Carolina is proof that if Harris gets in, federal disaster response will go back to being as bad as it was during the California wildfires [when Trump was in]."
I don't know what kind of legs that's going to have. Inside NC, they know what actually happened and how much the feds have done (and a well-liked Democratic governor to affirm it); outside NC it won't matter a lot.
Right. It won't work in this case, but generally? Maybe a better example is the diehards who say of J6 "But your BLM burned whole cities to the ground!" I mean if you are expecting Republicans to concede "our side did worse," you might be waiting a long time, even if the historical record is crystal clear.
The people in the New York suburbs who apparently believe that are a real problem in House elections, or were two years ago. I wonder if there's anywhere else in the country where that applies. Like say Oregon, are there districts that might be blue that won't be because of the imaginary burning of Portland? I'm positive we won't see anything like that in Minnesota. In Wisconsin, the imaginary burning happened to a place that isn't much of a city, Kenosha.
Concede, no. Wander off to follow another shiny object, maybe. The downside of believing propaganda is that its a lifestyle choice, not a belief system. Passionate but shallow, needing constant reinforcement.
Everybody forgot about Nixon when his crimes were reduced to the "third-rate burglary", though, right? I can see hoping the idiocy of Trump is visible for longer than the idiocy of Reagan or W Bush, idiotic though those two were, or Andrew Jackson.
This is different, don't you think? I mean, we were made into a joke in the eyes of the world — we put a carnival barker in the White House. (I was just in London talking to Brits about it...they're polite but they think we've lost our minds.)
No matter how you look at it, in terms of American politics there's everything else and then there's Trump (just like there is everything else and Hitler when you look at Germany — which is a much longer history — it just has a different ending).
I really can't see any other way of looking at it — and, over time, all the normalizing and "sanewashing" will wear off, as it did in regard to the McCarthy Era (which was mild compared to the last decade).
Seriously, don't you think? Nixon's not even in the ballpark.
That puts me in mind of Boris Johnson, another joke. It wasn't his clowning that brought him down, it was his criminality (extremely low-level in comparison to Trump's) or violation of British standards of fairness (*I* couldn't have a party, why should *he*?). Brits weren't humiliated by what you'd expect them to be humiliated by.
I'm not sure....I mean, what I really want to do is shake off this awful, unnatural mindset — the poison we've been choking on (on the left and the right) for nine years now — which keeps telling us that we can't see what we're actually seeing; that this atrocity somehow makes sense, since so many people are caught up in it.
I mean, again....we know what that looks like, right? Decades later it looks unthinkable; you see the crematoria and the mass graves and wonder how it could possibly happen; but THIS is how it happens: not just the followers but people like you and me somehow being persuaded to give credence to the unthinkable — "there's got to be something to this I can't see; some way that it's actually justifiable, that it makes sense to all those millions, and I can't insult them..."
I won't apologize for the comparison. Trump is filth. He's proven it over and over, and his "charisma" is the worst kind of cheap trick. I don't care how embarrassing it is to admit for them...that reckoning has to come. This is (as we keep hearing) not who we are, any more than Germany was the Third Reich, in the end.
It sounds eminently reasonable and I hope you're right. I do think that is the future Liz Cheney is trying to set up or be ready for. Some part of me sees her as a genuine conservative visionary -- while most Republicans have spent their time since 2016 looking no more than three minutes ahead, trying to ride this tiger, she has worked since 2021 to tranq the tiger, cram it back in its cage, and lay the groundwork to rebuild her party as a stable institution. I like to hope enough R voters will go along with that if this idiot and his cretinous VP choice get embarrassed bigly enough in four weeks. Then maybe people trust Team Red with real power again in 2036; it is a very long road back to trustworthy from "tried to overthrow the government" and "lying as easily as breathing."
I don’t think there’s any question about it. The donors; the elected politicians; the other public figures — they all hate Trump with a deep passion. The columnists; all of them — they’re just at an earlier Elizabeth Kubler-Ross stage so they can’t quite see how they brought this ruin on themselves.
I’ve seen many conservatives become liberals, or, at least, become less absurd conservatives. It can happen. The GOP as it stands now is a burning wreck, and I think they know it — they just aren’t ready to face it.
They hate him but fear him more, though really what they fear is what used to be their base fully turning on them. In America, the ultimate power (for the time being) is votes, and they clearly believe coming at the Orange King will lose them some 20-30% of their base.
Bit they still have their billionaires, think tanks, propaganda networks, and national party infrastructure. I don't think anyone knows how deep Trump's corruption of the party really goes, what with an obvious majority of politicians simply keeping their heads down until Somebody Else deals with their Trump problem. What I think we're seeing with Cheney et al is prepping for tue coming power strugggle for the party, and ultimately the voter base. But that doesn't start until Trump goes down, probably permanemtly. It would be very instructive to see just how much leverage a Trump in prison would have.How far does the mob boss analogy go?
Does any of that stuff work beyond its effect on the primaries (of selecting Senate candidates who can't win in the general)? If he wins the election we'll find out how well the infrastructure works with Project 2025, and I hope we don't have to, but I still have my doubts. As a mob boss in the White House, he wasn't that good at mobilizing violence—not good enough to fight off the law. In prison, I think he'd lose every drop of that.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, Trump's electoral power depends on those low-propensity voters, and they're a very weak reed. Maybe they'll show up in November, but they're really not reliable.
"In America, the ultimate power (for the time being) is votes" -- I don't disagree, but can I add an asterisk?
The ultimate power is the electoral college, which favors conservative votes. One wonders how the GOP would pitch itself and govern (and clean up their own house) if they had to compete in a majority-rules system.
I agree with you more than with Cheez Wis above, though Cheez's view is certainly justified. I think they will not advance along Kubler-Ross fast enough and will pick Mini-Trump Vance in 2028 -- but what gives me ultimate hope for the rehabilitation of the GOP is the wild unpopularity of their destruction of Roe. I think we have barely begun to come to terms with the fallout of that -- which chiefly will be, I suspect, evangelical voters receding from politics. After all, the Republicans delivered what evangelicals most wanted, and now are running away from it to survive, so what's in it for the most committed anymore? Disillusion and apathy to follow -- the party to realign with less emphasis on fundy-driven culture-war nonsense. I hope.
By 2032 the GOP might actually become the party their 2012 autopsy said they better be. But Trump will have to get shellacked this year and probably Vance in 2028 to make it happen.
It's all possible, and the best option they have, but it is predicated on growing a backbone and being willing to take the 1-time hit of calling Trump's bluff and repudiating him, unless he conveniently dies first. They don't have to abandon their policy of feeding the base just enough lies and red meat to get them to the polls, but they need to be rid of Trump. It's gonna tske more than losing this election for that to happen.
I think I know one woman who would be thrilled if her husband were shot dead at a Trump rally (hint: name begins with M, ends with “elania”).
I'm embarrassed for my home state of Colorado as the host of the source of the "two songs"—but it says something that the only GOP that would host Trump would be the Gov'r of Texas. Clearly, Trump was "Rocky Mountain High" on his own supply.
I say that as a neighbor, of sorts, to Norma Anderson, former GOP state senator and recently of Trump v Anderson, quite the SCOTUS infamy. Who's left? Rep. Boebert AKA "Beetlebert"? "Aurora" Mayor Mike Coffman?
Joking in front of the Comperatore widow that some wives would be thrilled to be in her shoes is so beyond all that is holy, it didn't even register in me that it actually happened until now, minutes after reading it. We really need to bury this monster under 20 million votes in November. And then freeze him and airlift him to Antarctica like we did with The Blob.
There's something profound, or profoundly eerie, about the tolerance in his base, supporters, and assorted remora along for the ride, for his Mafia sub-boss insult comic schtick. He insults the widow of the guy he used as a prop at his nomination, and it's "well, that's our Trump". No one else could get away with that. It's like they are all afraid of him. I understand the party, he owns their base and they clearly believe they will melt like the Wicked Witch of the West if they even threaten to cut him off. But all those God Bless Our Troops people? When did that get conditional? The Evangelicals I understand, like everyone else they think they will use him for their own ends and just flatter him regularly to keep him happy. Their faith and morals have always been situational. I assumed the bond was just that he fully validated their fear and resentment in language they understood, but now I think there's something more down there.
His whole run as a national figure has really opened a disturbing window on what motivates human beings and what huge compromises they are willing to make for what useless gains. All the psychology that, like you indicate, seemed in prior eras to be isolated to subgroups like organized crime has turned out to be widespread in the general population. I think a lot, since Trump, about this 1941 essay, "Who Goes Nazi?" https://harpers.org/archive/1941/08/who-goes-nazi/
Jeepers Dorothy Thompson was one tough broad. Not sure she was 100% right but the toughness was right.
Now that the window is open, it is time to give the nod to Charles K.L. Brand.
I was thinking today that we'll be able to win any argument with Conservatives/Republicans for time immemorial, just by saying "Look what happens when your side takes over."
I see the problem. You assume that at some point they must ackowledge reality. I used to think that, but the more I study this phenomenon, the more I see no reason for them to do that, and ever-growing reasons for them to stay in the clown car.
Denial, coupled with approval from authority figures, is a powerful shield. Any loss is a conspiracy, any win is virtue rewarded. Remember, the only problem the Republicsn party (all of it, from Bill Barr to Liz 'n Dick) has with Trump is style, not substance. You mention elsewhere the "spell" being broken, but the tools Trump has put in the Republican toolbox will be used as needed. The ratchet only goes one way until it breaks, and when it does everything breaks.
Almost hate to admit it, but I think Liz sincerely hates the trashing of the Constitution (she has a different idea than you and me about her father's record). It's not just about manners for her. Gods forbid she should get a cabinet position, but I can see giving her the old Medal of Freedom.
How well have Trump's tools worked? Of all the people they sic'd the Justice Department and IRS on, the only one they've been able to touch is Hunter, who is after all not that innocent. The January 6 conspiracy didn't come close to achieving its aim, and now they want to try the same thing without the resources of having their man in the White House.
You're probably right about Liz. Forgive me, but say what you will about the tenets of conservatism, at least it's an ethos. But she is as committed to the weakening of democracy to ensure Republican rule as Trump is to ensuring Trump rule. Trump is her bridge too far, because he leads to a ravine for her and her party.
One of the hallmarks of fascism is how sloppy and inefficient it is. Honestly, what I'm worried about (assuming Trump loses) is the Republican party power struggle to come. In a sane world, without Trump's charisma to command the base, the old guard should regain control, and revert to the original plan to smother democracy slowly. Can MAGA find a new champion? I doubt it, but who knows, right?
Counterpoint, alas, this week I saw multiple Republicans on twitter saying "North Carolina is proof that if Harris gets in, federal disaster response will go back to being as bad as it was during the California wildfires [when Trump was in]."
I don't know what kind of legs that's going to have. Inside NC, they know what actually happened and how much the feds have done (and a well-liked Democratic governor to affirm it); outside NC it won't matter a lot.
Right. It won't work in this case, but generally? Maybe a better example is the diehards who say of J6 "But your BLM burned whole cities to the ground!" I mean if you are expecting Republicans to concede "our side did worse," you might be waiting a long time, even if the historical record is crystal clear.
The people in the New York suburbs who apparently believe that are a real problem in House elections, or were two years ago. I wonder if there's anywhere else in the country where that applies. Like say Oregon, are there districts that might be blue that won't be because of the imaginary burning of Portland? I'm positive we won't see anything like that in Minnesota. In Wisconsin, the imaginary burning happened to a place that isn't much of a city, Kenosha.
Concede, no. Wander off to follow another shiny object, maybe. The downside of believing propaganda is that its a lifestyle choice, not a belief system. Passionate but shallow, needing constant reinforcement.
Passionate Shallows was the coolest album the Moody Blues never made...
Right but I don't mean nonsense like that, when we're still in the throes of it all — like the period in 72-6 when they were still defending Nixon.
I'm talking about long down the road, when the spell is broken — however long we've got power, we can say, remember Trump? Remember all that?
Everybody forgot about Nixon when his crimes were reduced to the "third-rate burglary", though, right? I can see hoping the idiocy of Trump is visible for longer than the idiocy of Reagan or W Bush, idiotic though those two were, or Andrew Jackson.
This is different, don't you think? I mean, we were made into a joke in the eyes of the world — we put a carnival barker in the White House. (I was just in London talking to Brits about it...they're polite but they think we've lost our minds.)
No matter how you look at it, in terms of American politics there's everything else and then there's Trump (just like there is everything else and Hitler when you look at Germany — which is a much longer history — it just has a different ending).
I really can't see any other way of looking at it — and, over time, all the normalizing and "sanewashing" will wear off, as it did in regard to the McCarthy Era (which was mild compared to the last decade).
Seriously, don't you think? Nixon's not even in the ballpark.
That puts me in mind of Boris Johnson, another joke. It wasn't his clowning that brought him down, it was his criminality (extremely low-level in comparison to Trump's) or violation of British standards of fairness (*I* couldn't have a party, why should *he*?). Brits weren't humiliated by what you'd expect them to be humiliated by.
I'm not sure....I mean, what I really want to do is shake off this awful, unnatural mindset — the poison we've been choking on (on the left and the right) for nine years now — which keeps telling us that we can't see what we're actually seeing; that this atrocity somehow makes sense, since so many people are caught up in it.
I mean, again....we know what that looks like, right? Decades later it looks unthinkable; you see the crematoria and the mass graves and wonder how it could possibly happen; but THIS is how it happens: not just the followers but people like you and me somehow being persuaded to give credence to the unthinkable — "there's got to be something to this I can't see; some way that it's actually justifiable, that it makes sense to all those millions, and I can't insult them..."
I won't apologize for the comparison. Trump is filth. He's proven it over and over, and his "charisma" is the worst kind of cheap trick. I don't care how embarrassing it is to admit for them...that reckoning has to come. This is (as we keep hearing) not who we are, any more than Germany was the Third Reich, in the end.
It sounds eminently reasonable and I hope you're right. I do think that is the future Liz Cheney is trying to set up or be ready for. Some part of me sees her as a genuine conservative visionary -- while most Republicans have spent their time since 2016 looking no more than three minutes ahead, trying to ride this tiger, she has worked since 2021 to tranq the tiger, cram it back in its cage, and lay the groundwork to rebuild her party as a stable institution. I like to hope enough R voters will go along with that if this idiot and his cretinous VP choice get embarrassed bigly enough in four weeks. Then maybe people trust Team Red with real power again in 2036; it is a very long road back to trustworthy from "tried to overthrow the government" and "lying as easily as breathing."
I don’t think there’s any question about it. The donors; the elected politicians; the other public figures — they all hate Trump with a deep passion. The columnists; all of them — they’re just at an earlier Elizabeth Kubler-Ross stage so they can’t quite see how they brought this ruin on themselves.
I’ve seen many conservatives become liberals, or, at least, become less absurd conservatives. It can happen. The GOP as it stands now is a burning wreck, and I think they know it — they just aren’t ready to face it.
That's shrewd on Kubler-Ross
Thank you.
They hate him but fear him more, though really what they fear is what used to be their base fully turning on them. In America, the ultimate power (for the time being) is votes, and they clearly believe coming at the Orange King will lose them some 20-30% of their base.
Bit they still have their billionaires, think tanks, propaganda networks, and national party infrastructure. I don't think anyone knows how deep Trump's corruption of the party really goes, what with an obvious majority of politicians simply keeping their heads down until Somebody Else deals with their Trump problem. What I think we're seeing with Cheney et al is prepping for tue coming power strugggle for the party, and ultimately the voter base. But that doesn't start until Trump goes down, probably permanemtly. It would be very instructive to see just how much leverage a Trump in prison would have.How far does the mob boss analogy go?
Does any of that stuff work beyond its effect on the primaries (of selecting Senate candidates who can't win in the general)? If he wins the election we'll find out how well the infrastructure works with Project 2025, and I hope we don't have to, but I still have my doubts. As a mob boss in the White House, he wasn't that good at mobilizing violence—not good enough to fight off the law. In prison, I think he'd lose every drop of that.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, Trump's electoral power depends on those low-propensity voters, and they're a very weak reed. Maybe they'll show up in November, but they're really not reliable.
"In America, the ultimate power (for the time being) is votes" -- I don't disagree, but can I add an asterisk?
The ultimate power is the electoral college, which favors conservative votes. One wonders how the GOP would pitch itself and govern (and clean up their own house) if they had to compete in a majority-rules system.
I agree with you more than with Cheez Wis above, though Cheez's view is certainly justified. I think they will not advance along Kubler-Ross fast enough and will pick Mini-Trump Vance in 2028 -- but what gives me ultimate hope for the rehabilitation of the GOP is the wild unpopularity of their destruction of Roe. I think we have barely begun to come to terms with the fallout of that -- which chiefly will be, I suspect, evangelical voters receding from politics. After all, the Republicans delivered what evangelicals most wanted, and now are running away from it to survive, so what's in it for the most committed anymore? Disillusion and apathy to follow -- the party to realign with less emphasis on fundy-driven culture-war nonsense. I hope.
By 2032 the GOP might actually become the party their 2012 autopsy said they better be. But Trump will have to get shellacked this year and probably Vance in 2028 to make it happen.
It's all possible, and the best option they have, but it is predicated on growing a backbone and being willing to take the 1-time hit of calling Trump's bluff and repudiating him, unless he conveniently dies first. They don't have to abandon their policy of feeding the base just enough lies and red meat to get them to the polls, but they need to be rid of Trump. It's gonna tske more than losing this election for that to happen.